Fergiji da ali ne?

[drmo]

Ker ni fajn da TypeKoshirju smetimo temo in je zanimiva tematika nastala predlagam da nadaljujemo tukaj.

Pri nas so mojstri, ki ti nastavjo frgazarje.
Tist, ki misli da so sam zunaj slovenije mehaniki, ki znajo napedenat ali frgazarje al pa kaj drugega na motorju.

Naj mi pa potem en razloži kako nastavljajo frgazarje na dirkalnem ZX-6r recmo letnik 98 (je na frgazarje)?

Kako to da nobeden od domacih konkurencnih avtov na gorskih dirkah in podobno, ne vozi na 4xWebre? Ce je to tako dobro zakaj jih ne dajo gor na kaksne Cliote Williams, mogoce Swifta, F grupa omogoce neomejene predelave ma motorju.

Kar se tice motociklov imajo novejsi in se mocnejsi elektroniko. Kako to?
Tudi dirkalni.

Zato k je preveč dela če hočeš met skos vse top kar dajo fergiji od sebe. Sem se pogovarju z majstrom ki nama je prvič nastavu fergije in je rekel da so imeli za eno dirko 8 setov različnih diz in so potem testirali. Za vsako vreme in temperaturo je potrebno malo drugače nastavit...tudi za vsak motor je potrebno nastavit dize posebej, ne gre kar tako da daš iz enega enakega motorja na drugega in vse dela u nulo. Vendar lahko pa nastaviš fergija tudi tako da bo deloval spodobno skozi celo leto (kar se tiče velikosti diz, emulzijskih tub itd.)
Zanimivi podatki ki sem jih našel so tudi teli:
1969 Abarth 1600 GT Coupe - 1592cc, 8 valves, 2xWeber Carbs, 145bhp
1963 Abarth 1600 GT Coupe - 1592cc, 8 valves, 2xWeber 45DCOE Carbs, 155bhp, 167Nm
1965 Abarth Simca 1300 GT Coupe - 1288cc, 8 valves, 2xWeber Carbs, 138bhp

Pa še primerjava motorjev med 69' Ford Capri 2000 GT(kao neki sport varianta) in 65' Abarth Simca 1300 GT Coupe:
Bore/stroke ratio: Capri (1,29), Simca (1,07)
Fuel system: Capri (1xWeber carb), Simca (2xWeber45DCOE Carbs)
Max output: Capri (93Bhp), Simca (138Bhp)

Res da so tle še ostale razlike vendar mislm da je dost moči tud od fergijev.

Pa še primerjava med skoraj identičnima alfinima motorjema (85' AlfaRomeo 33 1.3S in 90' 33 1.3):
85' 33 1.3S: 1351cc, bore/stroke ratio 1.19, 2xDellorto DRLA 36carbs, 84bhp (5800obr/min), 119Nm (4000obr/min)
90' 33 1.3: 1351cc, bore/stroke ratio 1.19, Marelli IAW Inject., 86bhp (6000obr/min), 113Nm (4500obr/min)

Zakaj je z fegiji več navora? Zakaj so imele nekatere alfe že v osnovi itb-je vendar manj konj in navora kot z fergiji?

Sej ne rečem, elektronski ubrizg je zakon kar se tiče uravnavanja bencina, veš čas se prilagaja temperaturam in manjša je poraba, samo nevem kaj bi lahko bilo boljše pri moči injection motorja napram fergijem. Res pa je da je več strokovnjakov "računalniške dobe" in zelo malo (skoraj nič) strokovnjakov za fergije, če pa že je kakšen se mu pa ne da s tem ubadat.

[nebivedu]

Renault 5 maxi je imela 1527ccm in 450+ konjev, pa je delala na fergazerje. Ampak ko sem mojo navadno petko turbo hotel malo bolj popedenat, je bil v sloveniji samo en majster, ki jo je takrat znal popedenat (sicer za velik denar), da je imela približno 150 konjev. Sem prišel na en servis, pa sem rekel, nekaj me zajebava pr frgazerju, je tip samo rekel; " Tukaj nimamo pojma o teh avtih, bolje da greste kam drugam, ker smo mi v celem življenju enega prodali, pa še ta potem ni servisiral pri nas."

Večinioma so starejši ljudje znal to popedenat, mi mladi pa z vsem znanjem premoremo le to narest, da frgazer tok naštelamo, da imamo manjšo porabo (če nam uspe, ker ponavad še to ne znamo).

Da se pa na ferozi nastavit frgazer, da potem avto gre 170 in več po avtocesti (kar je za tak avto odlično), ampak poraba je pa nekako previsoka za vsakdanje izživljanje. Ko sem to sprobaval, je avto komaj vžgal brez gasa, ampak na avtocesti se mu je pa zvrtelo in je šel po GPS-u 175km/h. Poraba za tri zunanje kroge okol ljubljane (okol 100km) je bila pa 23 litrov, kar pomeni da bi imel tank za komaj 250km.

Z veseljem bi se šel učit frgazerje nastavljat, pa ni ljudi, ki bi kej takega učili.

[nebivedu]

Tukaj pa še za privržence mal podrobnosti o webru 32/36
http://www.suzukiinfo.com/sierra/weber.zip

[Charger]

Sodobni 1.6 (ala Honda Vti z malo boljsimi odmicnimi) imajo 200KM na elektroniko, malo porabijo in se delajo brez problema. Ce hoces se malo predelat imas okoli 240KM iz 1.6 motorja. Na toliko Anglezi navijajo recimo 1.6 16V motorje od Opla (ITB in elektronika (plus vse mehanske komponente)).

Formula 1 turbo motorji so imeli iz 1.5 litra tudi 1500KM, (na vbrizgavanje goriva)

Ce bi Webri in ostali delali najbolje bi jih se sedaj uporabljaji. Dirkalni avtomobili potrebujejo vse najboljse komponente. Vsak KM je vazen.

Kdor se rad bavi s 4x Webri , naj jih zmontira in pride pokazat kaj je naredil iz motorja. Ce bo imel vec KM kot jih spravim ven z elektroniko potem mu cestitam.

Dosedaj pri nas nekako to ne uspeva. Niti se nikomure noce bavit s tem (ker je itak brezupno pocetje)

Ce pa imas v garazi 50 let star avto na uplinjace, itak da pustis vse original. Razen ce bi rad imel vec KM (potem predelas na elektroniko )


P.S.
Tiste Alfe na elektroniko so potem porabile dva litra manj od onih na uplinjac.

[spaljeni]

Renault 5 maxi je imela 1527ccm in 450+ konjev, pa je delala na fergazerje. Ampak ko sem mojo navadno petko turbo hotel malo bolj popedenat, je bil v sloveniji samo en majster, ki jo je takrat znal popedenat (sicer za velik denar), da je imela približno 150 konjev. Sem prišel na en servis, pa sem rekel, nekaj me zajebava pr frgazerju, je tip samo rekel; " Tukaj nimamo pojma o teh avtih, bolje da greste kam drugam, ker smo mi v celem življenju enega prodali, pa še ta potem ni servisiral pri nas."

Večinioma so starejši ljudje znal to popedenat, mi mladi pa z vsem znanjem premoremo le to narest, da frgazer tok naštelamo, da imamo manjšo porabo (če nam uspe, ker ponavad še to ne znamo).

Da se pa na ferozi nastavit frgazer, da potem avto gre 170 in več po avtocesti (kar je za tak avto odlično), ampak poraba je pa nekako previsoka za vsakdanje izživljanje. Ko sem to sprobaval, je avto komaj vžgal brez gasa, ampak na avtocesti se mu je pa zvrtelo in je šel po GPS-u 175km/h. Poraba za tri zunanje kroge okol ljubljane (okol 100km) je bila pa 23 litrov, kar pomeni da bi imel tank za komaj 250km.

Z veseljem bi se šel učit frgazerje nastavljat, pa ni ljudi, ki bi kej takega učili.

Nalij notr petrolej preverjeno dela







Ps Nekak ni hotla ugasnt.

[spaljeni]

P.S.
Tiste Alfe na elektroniko so potem porabile dva litra manj od onih na uplinjac.

Šle pa dosti manj mene so s 33 1.3 s na frgazerjih obtoežvali da mam večji motor noter avto je šel abnormalno z odprtimi sekundarnimi fergazerji in pa če si vedu kako jo pelajt je mela porabo 7-8 litrov. Ko sm pa enkrat mel športni dan sem jo pa spravu na 23 litrov in potem v škodo ampak o tem pa nebi :D:D

[drmo]

Sej pravm, poraba je tista k je mal prevelika, pa ljudi ni velik k se še ukvarja s tem. Definitivno pa je lažje na nov motor montirat ITB-je kot pa fergije (in tud bolj smiselno), na stare motorje pa pač fergije ker je ceneje.

Bla je slika na tem forumu (zdej ne vem kdo jo je dal gor) od ene 205ke 1.9gti predelane na 2xweber45DCOE, pa ima v osnovi elektronski vbrizg.





Zanimivo.

[ViKo]

zadnji weberji so imeli že kar nekaj elektronike... čudno?

piezo injection je naredil vbrizg še idealnejši in danes je tudi že dovolj "maherjev" na el. vbrizgu in vedno manj tistih, ki se z beraško malho ne morejo sprijaznit. Na ne/srečo je pri vsaki stvari tako: "kuj dokler je še vroče".
"frgazarji" že dolgo niso več.

[nebivedu]

zadnji weberji so imeli že kar nekaj elektronike... čudno?

piezo injection je naredil vbrizg še idealnejši in danes je tudi že dovolj "maherjev" na el. vbrizgu in vedno manj tistih, ki se z beraško malho ne morejo sprijaznit. Na ne/srečo je pri vsaki stvari tako: "kuj dokler je še vroče".
"frgazarji" že dolgo niso več.

Odvisno kje in kako ter zakaj rabiš kaj takega.

Pri meni je važno, da je v avtu vse mehansko in čimmanj elektonike. V osnovi mi je najljubše če lahko vse sam popravim, tako da kljub temu, da bi kje ostal, bi lahko poštimal mašino in vse mehanske dele. Od elektrike pa imam pod havbo samo še kable za do luči in žmigavcev in povezave akumulator, alternator, štarter in potem v kabino, kjer pa tudi ni dost vsega. Pa tako je - vse kar je mehansko je uglavnem simpl za popravit, če ti pa računalnik ene kode javlja, pa moraš to pol že priklapljat na sisteme, ki ti kažejo napake.
Pa poanta pri mojem avtu je manj kot elektrike je, manj voda zalije in manj crkne. Pa se to full pozna, Bandit je bil zraven ko smo vozili na BFGoodrich challenge po vodi - 7 do 8 metrov dolga luža in malo več kot pol metra vode in si lahko s šusom pruiletel vanjo, če si hotel), pa tut zajavkal ni avto, kr nekaj jih je pa zalilo in par jih potem ni nadaljevalo tekme.

[corsa_A]

Normalno je da fergazerji niso konkurenca itb-jem pri vožnji in moči, a lahko jim konkurirajo v ceni. Če se malo znajdeš lahko zelo poceni narediš fergazerje. Npr od yamahe r1 so poceni, potrebno je samo predelati šobe in narediti kolektor. Takšne predelave so v uk zelo popularne in se ne morejo primerjati v ceni z itb-ji.

[drmo]

Kolk se jest zastopm v fegije jih je elektronika zamenjala predvsem zaradi porabe in nezmožnosti prilagajanja na različne podnebne razmere. Elektronika to vse sama uravnava, pri fergijih moraš bit pa sam malo mojster da to vse nastaviš.
Kot je že Corsa_A rekel...cena je tista ki konkurira ITB-jem, ker za ITB-je rabiš velikokrat potem še druge injektorje, ECU, itd., na koncu je pa to vse še potrebno nastavit.
Pa še malo heca. Se pa tudi hondaši pri nas zanimajo za dellortote Zanjič sem srečal enega na odpadu ki jih je iskal. Ponudil sem mu moje vendar ga je na žalost nekdo drug že prehitel. Na istem odpadu sem tudi videl motor od integre 1.6 z dvema keihin vplinjačema.

[Charger]

Tudi za uplinjace rabis elektroniko, kako pa mislis, da se nastavlja predvzig, ki je pri NA motorjih zelo pomemben? In to 3D elektroniko, da se predvzih nastavlja glede na obremenitev motorja in obrate.
Te zadeve kar stanejo.

[speedy_gonzales]

pomojm je edini razlog zakaj se u tuningu fergazerjev ne uporablja vec, ta da moras bit res legenda in obvladat zadevo ce hoces maximum vn dobit. ce vse skup povzamem, je prevec stvari k posredno in neposredno vplivajo na izkoristek/moc motorja k dela na fergazerje, kot naprimer:vlaga/gostota,temperatura,pritisk zraka, temperatura benza, prostornina "runnerjev" dolžina "runnerjev" in z njimi tut povezana resonanca,....
pac je bl simpl gor dat senzor za pletok zraka, pa konstantno notr spricat

[Charger]

Vecina ITB nima senzorja za pretok zraka.

[speedy_gonzales]

ok ITBji so zakon, sam se vseen sm pa mnenja da se jim pravilno nastelan fergazer loh ob bok postav.

[drmo]

ok ITBji so zakon, sam se vseen sm pa mnenja da se jim pravilno nastelan fergazer loh ob bok postav.

word!

[mloncar]

There are several issues between using multiple carbs and TBs. In general, as has been said above, TBs offer more fuelling precision over a wider range of loads and speeds, but there are sometimes situations in which carb work better, because they self compensate to a degree, such as loss of cylinder sealing as the engine wears and ram air effect at high speed, where a carb will naturally match the fuelling to the changes in airflow to some extent, but njection won't compensate unless closed loop mixture control or very precise manifold absolute pressure compensations have been incorporated.

Three points where TBs can have the edge on power/flexibility:
Mounting Angle Weber/Dell'Orto sidedraughts only operate properly if mounted within +/- 7 degrees from horizontal, so when space is a problem (ie 106 brake bar), the maximum tract length can be a limiting factor, also TBs and injection will continue to work normally (assuming the fuel supply is consistent) if the car is forced into extreme angles. Most Bike carbs cope well at varying angles.

Fuel dropout With injection you can mount the inejctors close to the valve to ensure good fuel mixing and minimal dropout at low-medium air speeds in the tracts. Carbs need to be mounted fairly close to the engine to minimise drop out, but the chilling effect on the manifold at cruise can harm economy and smooth running. Atomisation of the fuel is generally better with injection during normal driving.

Tract shape/spacing You're limited with typical sidedraught DCOE/DHLA carbs by the fixed 90mm bore spacing, where as ITBs can be spaced down to about 63mm typically. this is advantageous to the tract shape in some applications. Also with TBs you can vary the tract taper/shape/size almost infiinately without dramatically affecting the fuelling, but with carbs, what you're given is virtually what you get and varying choke and venturi sizes (in the pursuit of an ideal tract shape) affects many aspects of performance.

The big one though is ignition. Mechanical ignition distributors are very limited in the way they can control the ignition advance at various speeds and loads. Essentially, they can only provide increasing advance as the revs increase. That's ok with mildly cammed 8v engines, but 16v engines and tuned engines need a much more complex ignition curve for maximum power and flexibility. Mapped ignition, especially with a throttle position sensor, allows ignition advance to be optimised at virtually all speeds and loads, so you can give the engine exactly what it "wants" for best power or smooth running. Timing a distributor is more a case of finding the best compromise.
To illustrate the difference, I've plotted a few ignition curves for XU engines:



As you can see, the distributor curves are very crude compared to what has been optimised for the mapped ignition engines. If you were use a XU9JA distributor on the XU10J4RS and advance it enough to give the best peak power, It will have about 8 degrees too much at 3000rpm and it will probably pink itself to meltdown. Furthermore it will have too much advance to start reliably and may even try to run backwards! So you have to back it off so much that the top end power suffers.
The XU9J4 is a good example of a curve for a tuned 16v engine and that curve is entirely impractical to achieve with a distributor. If a distributor was fitted, the lack of advance below 3000rpm would make it virtually undriveable.

If you compare the differences between carbs/mapped ignition and full management with TBs, the differences are smaller and mostly relate to part throttle and low speed, but having to choose chokes, jets and venturis on the carbs will inevitably lead to a compromise that probably would be necessary with full management and TBs.

[mloncar]

Še ena zanimiva primerjava:

I finally got to do something recently that I've wanted to do for a long time, a back to back with and without a good TB set up on a 106 GTi.
Nicks car started out with a standard engine, fitted with a Supersprint exhaust manifold and green filter cold air induction kit. This is a popular set up which clearly extracts very good results without further mods. The car has been rolling road tested at Powerstation before, and was indicated to give 152bhp at the flywheel, a bit optimistic, but clearly working well.
When Nick arrived with the car, we immediately warmed it up and put it in the rollers to take a set of "before" figures so we could see after exactly where the figures were changing. The conditions were fairly cool, so ideal for good readings! We test power at static rpm sites using a Sun RAM XII rolling road with DRO, it's calibrated regularly with a torque arm to ensure consistent and repeatable figures.
The figures we got were pretty good, the best "standard" 106 GTi we've seen yet, it had a very strong torque peak (approximately 125lbft flywheel at 5500rpm) and peak power was 118bhp at the wheels (approximately 142bhp flywheel at 6500rpm). I clearly had my work cutout to beat that!
I'd already prepared the loom work to convert to the DTA S40 ECU, so removing the standard inlet and fitting the new inlet (my DCOE "DTH" style design) and the 42mm Jenvey TH bodies was a pretty straight forward task after cutting the scuttle. Once the car was back up and running I did some road miles to hone down the fueling map; I prefer to trim the fuel mapping out in the real world, because the engine is seeing the airflow and temps it will really see, rather than the slightly artificial environment of the rollers. After that it was down to the rollers to optimise the ignition map for best power and check the results.
I fitted 40mm trumpets initially, to allow room for a proper filter to be fitted, it's the practical maximum. The initial mid range results weren't really climbing clear of the standard inlet to though and it wasn't pulling clear of the standard results until 5200rpm, after that it peaked at 128bhp at the wheels (bear in mind that after mapping the conditions were much hotter than the initial standard engine test), which was 10bhp up on the original set up.
I wasn't convinced at this stage that it was all working as it should and set about finding some other trumpets to try, to see if the mid range could be improved. Stuart Hatch down the road had some 60mm trumpets that would fit and kindly dropped them over on his lunch break (cheers Stuart!!). We starting mapping the changes and the difference in mid range was incredible, at 4000rpm it was 15bhp up (18%) up on the 40mm trumpets and kept on making more power all the way to the limiter! The final results being 131bhp at the wheels (approx 158bhp flywheel) and approx 133lbft at 6000rpm, holding over 85% peak torque from 3500-7000rpm.
Here are my plots of the results:

Wheels figures:


Flywheel final figures:


The small difference in trumpet shape and/or tract length made an huge difference to the end results and to me insists the importance of tuning TB set ups to the engine, rather than just bolting on what you have and judging it as a success or failure.

None of this really illustrates how the car feels or sounds on the move either, which is pretty pleasing too!

Še nekaj slik samih ITBjev:

There are some better pics about of Andy Monkman's car with it, but here's Nick's:

Cheers for the pics Nick!

I've just dug out the results from Andy's when I mapped it. We didn't know what the cams he had were, apart from they were 11mm lift. The rest of his spec was modified 16v pistons (raised CR), PTS rods, double valve springs, hydraulic lifters, 4-2-1 exhaust (BTB I think?), JP4 head (lightly ports possibly), my DCOE DTH style inlet, 45mm bodies IIRC, 40mm trumpets, cut scuttle. You get the idea.

[drmo]

Re zanimiva primerjava, kako je odvisna moč od dolžine trobentic. Srednje območje je res skočilo z daljšimi.

[Maxss]

... Na te motorje dajejo tudi eno loputo od 60 - 70 mm pa pridelajo do 190 km gor ... poznam enega osebno, ki jih ima 186 : Raffaele http://www.passionesaxo.com/La%20mia%20auto.htm ... predvčerajšnjim sem videl v živo kaj pomeni to ... na linku ima opisane vse predelave ... L.p. M.